Magic: Important Announcement, read or get kicked hard

[Rothene]

Can warding be used for Illusion type magic as real illusion magic be longs to fae magic? Like for example giving the shields shape and colouration to make it appear as something else from afar.

[J. M. Vincent]

Yeah

[Rothene]

From what I have been reading so far, mana is the lifeforce of the world given to all living things, but does it equate to Life or Soul Energy or are Life and Soul Energy the same thing? If mana is the Lifeforce of the world in living things, when a sorcerer casts spells near another sorcerer, does he/she suck away the mana from all nearby sorcerers as they have high mana concentrations? The way mana and spellcasting by drawing the lifeforce of nearby things is described gives me the impression that all Sorcerers have a Mana/Life drain effect going on ALL living things nearby where Life is converted to mana.....

Oh, and can the Sorcerer control who and what and where they suck their external source of mana?
If a sorcerer were to have no manastones in hand and esperately need to shield a dying person in a desert, will he/she kill that person outright because the mana drawn from the surrounding drain what little lifeforce the target has?

[J. M. Vincent]

Ok, this comes from Rory, but he couldn't be bothered to log in and explain it himself.

Mana is not the same as soul energy, but it is one of many energies (ki being another) that are present in living things. Mana is a component of souls as well, but not the entire soul. There is a tier to what is drained first; plants, then animals, then people, and finally spirits, and it's like taking a sip from the life around you, so the effects aren't readily noticeable. The first source of mana is the sorcerer, however. In the example of trying to protect a dying person in the desert, they would draw both from themselves and the other person, but the amount probably wouldn't be enough to kill the weaker person unless the spell was insanely powerful.

My initial statement about manastones being drained first because they're the most concentrated was a mistake. What Rory meant for the usage of manastones is that the stone has to be bonded to the sorcerer through ritual so that when they cast, the manastone is then keyed to be the source of all mana for the sorcerer. He also mentioned that similiar ritual could be applied to humans (maybe other entities too, such as animals and spirits) to basically drain all of a person's mana for spells, but this would likely be under the purview of necromancy, as it is a rather insidious idea.

[Fred]

Any questions, comments, or corrections regarding the Fae magic system should be posted here.

I've questions! I just used Fae magic with Mishalla in our Voyage to Ertia thread and I might have taken a few liberties. I see this as perhaps a good opportunity to flesh things out for fae magic. Mishalla has a tool that I'd like to use inventively, but in my last post I pushed the envelope of what fae magic offers here, so, I thought ironing those details could be a good idea for future reference.

I guess my frame of reference pretty much rests over the D&D 3rd edition magic system. There's a look at illusions here.

First thing I wish to clear up in the extent of an illusion's scope. The description in the post above heavily hints at it being visual only - but can an illusion provide adequate stimuli to match for all five senses? Or are they only the creation of visual images over a specific locale (magically conjured volumetric projection).

Secondly, how much can an illusion prey on the belief of another? Can a complex illusion portraying flame actually have the subject react in pain to touching the flame even if he wasn't actually burned - just on the belief of it? The potentially mind affecting aspect of lures tend to hint that providing compulsions is also possible... so with this in mind, can an illusion inspire pain, evoke fearsome images drawn from the person's own mind, fool someone into interaction (shaking an illusory person's hand, and believing it despite not actually touching anything) and so forth?

Third, clarifying the extent of shape-changing would be nice. One thing I thought about was partial shapechanging - could a shapechanger turn his skin to a barklike consistency to better resist cuts and not bleed as much? Could he grow thorns or spines to use them as weapons? It's also not absolutely implied that shapechanging is self-only, bringing about the question of if the effects can effect others, from the more benign uses of granting an ally a tougher barky hide to turning a reviled opponent into a piglet.

Finally, there's also the matter of the incantation. Just how detailed to the intended effect do the rhyming couplets need to be? Is it reasonable to assume that the actual intent and effect of the desired magical effect can also be heavily based on the intent, creativity and imagination of the magic user in question? I mean, there's only so much detail you can but in rhyming couplets - it's hard enough to just have them rhyme and make sense from a roleplaying perspective.

[J. M. Vincent]

Fuuu... I gotta contact Rory about that, but his brain is broken lately.

[Alera Tai'var]

Well, in EKD illusions were not able to affect any senses besides vision. The only other sense Jess has given was sound. I think the problem is that it fundamentally changes how we conceive of illusion if someone can channel senses into others. It sounds more like telepathy than illusion. And you get into all of these problems where illusionists could, for example, create that illusion of fire on top of someone and put them in shock. And, if you can do that with illusion magics, then that's the only trick you need to know how to do to win a fight.

It also takes away the element of having illusion be a volumetric act. If your version of illusion is the delivery of fake senses like heat sensation, touch, ect, then no illusionist would be working to create volumetric illusions. Just deliver it straight into someone's sight through that sense transfer.

To add a third point, should the power stay volumetric, then an illusionist could create the illusion of multiple men and deliver blunt force trauma pain with every blow. It means illusionists could make small armies.

As per the lures element, my personal reading on it has been that lures affect your will, but not your senses. A lure can weaken your will, make you pliable, make you believe the knowledge told to you, or even alter your emotions, but I don't think they can alter physiological senses.

[Rothene]

The way Warding spells repel beings from entering a certain area, does the spell act like it imposses an 'impression' or 'order' onto the targets mind, making the target's instinct tell them not to enter? If so, can warding spells be used to 'tell' targets what to do or believe in, a bit like mind-bending? This seems like the only way I can imagine a Sorcerer 'mind controlling' others, attack spells don't seem to have this kinda flexibility.

[Astrid Starwind]

Isn't that more of illusionist type spell? Warding, should just be warding not create illusions at the same time. I think for human, it's rarely needed sort but if you were dra'nafod or other races with fae type magic...well its something more they would use to trick humans into beliving that they can not enter forest, area etc to protect their home.

Though in sorcery there must be a school wehre they teach various general spells before they can branch off to specialise in four main areas.

[Rothene]

Just wondering if that is posible as Sorcery being able to do 'anything' gives me the impression that if the sorcerer understood the mechanics of how each of the schools of magic work, they could perform things that are not directly related to what the school does. I'm too used to Sorcerers in fiction who can use magic to control minds, create illusions and force objects to change form, as an avid fan of Magic the Gathering. Just trying to see the limitations of how flexible we can be with Sorcery sothat when I finally RP my Sorcerer, I won't accidentally allow him to cast spells that are not within the abbilities of a Sorcerer.

[Astrid Starwind]

It's up to Jess to say what we can do, but I can't imagine humans at young age having enough time to learn powerful spells. It should take years to learn them and master them. Even if Aramiya's specialty is being a seer, she still isn't powerful enough to stay awake after a prolonged use. She will be knocked out phsyically into a coma if she tries to cast a powerful spell or even backfire on her. That is the reason why she carries a lot of manastone because she is only 21 and knows her physical limit. I am a fan of sorcery system used in Masca but this is after all Jess's creation she get the final say in what we can do. But learning from EKD rpgs in the past, its best to remember that we are still human(most of us) and sorcery is a powerful magic that takes years and years of practice.

[Fred]

Visuals are often what we think of when bringing out the term 'illusion' because vision is for most the dominant sense, but it involves far more. I'll quote the header in wikipedia for it:

An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. While illusions distort reality, they are generally shared by most people. Illusions may occur with more of the human senses than vision, but visual illusions, optical illusions, are the most well known and understood. The emphasis on visual illusions occurs because vision often dominates the other senses. For example, individuals watching a ventriloquist will perceive the voice is coming from the dummy since they are able to see the dummy mouth the words. Some illusions are based on general assumptions the brain makes during perception. These assumptions are made using organizational principles, like Gestalt, an individual's ability of depth perception and motion perception, and perceptual constancy. Other illusions occur because of biological sensory structures within the human body or conditions outside of the body within one’s physical environment.

The term illusion refers to a specific form of sensory distortion. Unlike a hallucination, which is a distortion in the absence of a stimulus, an illusion describes a misinterpretation of a true sensation. For example, hearing voices regardless of the environment would be a hallucination, whereas hearing voices in the sound of running water (or other auditory source) would be an illusion.

That premise suggests illusions are mostly in people's heads. Of course, the point of mentioning this isnt to call foul on the above entry, but given the creativity that could potentially go into illusions, I do believe it would be best to take another look at this and try to clear these things up. Heh, I could imagine some of this could also stem from some misconceptions I have on Jessica's fae, when she might have a different mental picture of them than the one I made myself.

I'll admit to some bias here, as I believe that limiting the illusion aspect to long incantation to use optical illusions for the most part is, well, weak and underwhelming in comparison to the potency of the magic that can be observed from elementalism. The Fae, a primarily magic using race (maybe?), may have difficulty even looking fearsome or daunting to deal with if their kind of magic pales in comparison to elementalism (with light and life elementalism being the most frequent points of comparison). When considering the questions I asked about, it might be easier for Jessica to try to relate with the sort of magic she'd see Naclia and Terin use (because this is nowhere nearly as potent as Lodoss' shamanism)... but I think it'd be more accurate for setting managers to see this from the point of view of the fae themselves, what magic they would boast, how they would interact with it and such. I myself always sort of associated the fey with curses, charms, enchantments, phantasms and the use of so much illusion that what is real and unreal within their realm would be rather hard to make out.

Then Fayl'Idayn, with their fae souls, may or may not have a different take on this.

[Alera Tai'var]

Well, I think expecting fae illusion magic to be able to go toe to toe with elementalism is a bit unfair because, in practical things like combat, illusion magic probably isn't your best choice. That's why they are different schools of magic. They do different things. Illusion is about deception and/or delicate things. My illusionist fae magic character, for example, is not, nor will he ever be, that good at combat. Keep in mind that the Fae generally don't really do combat like other races do. So the magic, at its core, doesn't either. Adapting it to that situation is not supposed to be easy.

That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to letting it affect other senses, but I think it creates a ton of complications that would have to be worked out because, if illusionist magic was, in essence, the ability to twist the senses-- (all 5-24, depending on whose list you are talking here)-- it could overwhelm almost everyone who has them. Instead of making images, you can just blind everyone or make them deaf. You could just cripple bodies with pain with a will. It would become too strong for the Fae, who aren't supposed to be the most dangerous force out there.

I do incredibly agree with the fact that illusion magic is handicapped by long incantation. I've had to tell a whole special story about how my character learned to do it without speaking or showing any signs because I felt the need to get past that to make him viable. It becomes incredibly obvious that something is an illusion if you have to recite poetry first.

[Fred]

Well, I see two ways of going by this:

You can have the 'illusion' effect be an actual conjured but real projection of light to confound the visual senses of other people, with auditory elements being actual vibrations in the air. That, however, feels more like it infringes on the actual 'essence' of light (unless 'light' is meant more as 'holy') and wind elementalism.

Or, you can have that facet of fae magic be one that actually preys on the perception, belief and even inclination/mood of another.

With the former, one can go and chant out an invocation that creates the image of a tree where there is none, with its leaves rustling if you want to add something to account for wind. You can make the image a cat running across a street. For those whom look at them, they'll see them. You might be able to create the sound of a rock clattering against stone, and those in range might hear it and react to it. You could also bend light and muffle noise to make yourself, or something invisible and those looking at you would end up seeing through you.

With the latter, you chant your invocation and make someone believe he is seeing a tree when there is actually none - and that this person ends up being the only one to see a tree. Or see a cat running across the street, or hear a pebble clattering on a rocky floor. In the case of invisibility, it's more a matter of doing the Jedi trick on the target and making him believe that you aren't there... but it doesn't mean you end up being invisible with impunity because even if you sneak past him and that there's someone else that can see you right around the corner, you'd be plainly visible to that other person because you didn't go and enspell him.

There's also a suspension of disbelief involved too. If a man you're fighting is aware of you and that you suddenly go invisible on him, he's going to want to see you, and hear you so that you won't stick something sharp at an unhealthy place for him - his fear will fuel disbelief because you must be somewhere around here. That probably entails a great resistance to the said effect because his mind ends up actively fighting it... unlike the bored guard whom likes to get paid for just standing there without incident.

I feel this dynamically merges with the lure part as luring goes further than just playing on perceptions. If you go and do a siren's song, you go and make something very involved which may make the target hear the song and from there you magically make him drawn to you, more curious, less wary and more impulsive to the stimuli you provide (the siren's song is voice, a will o' wisp is an moving light, ect...)

* * *

Now, if I go from there and take the spell Mishalla used. Mishalla brought out a swarm of silvery firemoths which she had 'attack' the four privateers so she'd get an opening. She was also hoping the light would bring in help from outside.

Based on the first idea above, Mishalla made a real-light image of those moths, with real sound to accompany them. She had them go make contact with the four men, but their touch did not actually burn - in which case the four men might've been moved to flinch in fear of being burned, but they wouldn't have actually felt any pain of the sort. Mishalla would've cast with them near-blinding light which would've gotten Rissya's attention.

The second idea would have the four boarders be given the illusion of the swarm of silvery firemoths. The incantation in the beginning is pretty much what fuels the initial 'belief' in the spell, but usually these things cascade: if you see the moths flapping their wings, it's easy to believe the sound that goes with it because the mind will make that connection. If those butterflies looks on fire and are winging toward you, then it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the glare they shed hurts the eyes, and that the fiery wings would emit heat, and that this heat, if they go and touch you, might hurt you (inspired far of it will encourage that belief). However, freak scares like that usually don't last for very long because even if you would have the moths touch you and burn you, your skin isn't actually being singed or darkening, your clothes aren't going on fire... and that half-elf woman is charging at you with a sword; your attention is divided and you end up having better priorities and not finding as much credence in the illusion because it makes less sense to you.

Also, seeing how the illusion would've been only in the minds of the four men, no light would've actually been shed, meaning Mishalla would not have had trouble accurately attacking them, but Rissya would also never had seen the light from belowdeck (they're on a boat) and would've had less reason to go down and join in.

I obviously like the second idea more, because I feel it sets out to do exactly what fae do: trick, confound, conceal with foresight to have the most enduring effects, with means which are insubstancial and unreal. That kind of fae magic is best done in a subtle, gentle fashion otherwise it's likely prone to be resisted and the effect shortlived. The first idea doesn't need to be subtle - people might call bullshit on the lightshow with sound effects - but it has substance and credibility (which makes me wonder if they shouldn't be part of the other magic systems).

[Alera Tai'var]

To me, it doesn't sound very different between the two when you put this example out. You don't get much more of anything, be it directed or otherwise. The only thing that really changes is whether multiple people perceive it or not. The rest is just their imagination. I guess my question becomes then why could their mind not make those connections with the projected image too? It doesn't seem like magic is affecting anything but their sight really. Fear inspiring can be done either way.

I get what you are going for and actually kind of like the idea of jedi mind tricking instead of casting projections. It would indeed change the way its done. I'm obviously invested because I also have a character using this magic. After getting your example, I could work with either comfortably and it seems like the overpowering thing isn't so much of a concern. I think both styles have to be subtle for exactly the reason that people could call bullshit. Really, they can sort of call bullshit on both of them, though the version you are pushing makes it harder to call bullshit on I think, because it is so enthralling.

[little knight]

More than likely, it is a "Do anything" school of magic, because it forces the world to bend to your will. Generally though, it would be a matter of experiance. A novice sorcerer could attempt higher end spells, but more than likely they would probably mess it up (drawing in more mana, harder to control it). As for the schools, it seemed to be rather general to just give examples of what paths most sorcerers take, similiar to fae magic and generalization of what its about.

When it all came down to it, sorcerer is controlled primarily by experiance and the sorcerer's morality more than anything else. Many would feel using spells of compulsion, to bend an intelligent being's to your own will would be pretty unscrupulous. In most fantasy circles, love spells are taboo due to that effect. But as Kat said, its primarily up to Jess, i'm sure she'll say "No! Bad!" if you do something that goes against what could be done.

[Astrid Starwind]

>_< but then what are sorcerers suppose to do when they get married? if the priestess of erada refuses to do it...so who plays the marriage officiant for the sorcerers??

[Rothene]

I don't think priestess of Erada would decline. After all, as long as the love is true and real there should be no problems with them. Haven't read much on the religion side of development though......

[J. M. Vincent]

Priests may not always practice what they preach. If they think sorcery is abhorrent and want nothing to do with it, they will offer no services to one who practices it. If, say, a pair of sorcerers wish to marry in Emkal where sorcery is the most prominent, they may either obscure their occupation/magic usage from the priestesses for a temple wedding, or they might be married by the state alone instead. Though I haven't worked out any details of actual marriage licenses for nations.

Rory will get to answering the magic questions later on.

[Rothene]

Anyone studied Biology? About the transfer of energy from one living being to another through consumption? The most basic instinct of all living thing is to survive right?

Hence to survive, a living being must acquire energy to live, that's why animals eat plants and we eat animals......all in the name of survival. And when more of that basic primal instict is satisfied, the living being subconciously becomes more satisfied and happier right?

So assuming that mana is part of that energy acquired by living things, the active role of a Sorcerer drawing in mana from the surroundings, in essense 'life', makes the body of the Sorcerer subconciously 'HAPPY' as it acquires more life, making it feel more complete.In this way, the Sorcerer should naturally feel happy as if he/she had taken in some drug that induces 'good feeling'.

But when the spell is cast, the mana gathered and some of the Sorcerer's own mana is consumed/drained away. This should leave an empty feeling in the Sorcerer as he has transfered away his/her 'life' energy, thus feeling incomplete or less whole than before casting AND even less whole than at the peak of gathering mana.

So after getting such a wonderful experience, the body will crave for such an experience where it can feel more complete than it was by gathering mana through spellcasting. In this way, sorcery can be a drug or addiction where the Sorcerer(especially new ones) are constantly being faced with the Desire to cast spells.

What does anybody think about the FEEL of Casting Sorcery being described as such? Might it be used to describe how sorcery corrupts people? Hence new sorcerers must gor for lessons to train themselves to handle the addiction that comes with Sorcery.

Is this a good idea to add flavour to the FEEL of casting sorcery since it DRAWS mana from the surroundings then SPENDS the mana as opposed to Elementalism that SPENDS the soul energy of the individual?

[Astrid Starwind]

No I don't think Mana should be something addictive, if it was that addictive bloody hell...every one who eats plants and animals would be addictied. Sorcerers far as I know take on other potential sorcerers if they have the talent to learn the arcane language, which bends the mana to their will. Mana only suppose to act as catalyst to spells not the fuel, biggger the spell...bigger catalyst is needed. I am pretty sure we talked about this somewhere in this forum, but for normal spells...sorcerers carry around enough mana within them selves to act as a catalyst. I want this form of srocery to be unique not some jumpbled up magic with bits and pieces sewn together from other magic systems. Mana system I understood being used was a simple but pure life force that exists and can be bent to a sorcerer's will by arcane language the sorcerers use. If it wasn't such a simple life force,no human will be safe from such energy and sorcery doesn't always have to be about power being corruptive. That is why it takes years for sorcerers to learn to control and bend the mana energy to their will.

[J. M. Vincent]

The whole issue with corruption only comes up when one's ego gets the better of them.

[Rothene]

I see. My bad, was wondering how the corruption part kicked in . But any idea how sorcery is meant to FEEL when casted? Does it tickle any of the senses? Does sorcery feel intrusive on the caster? Does it feel invigorating? Does it give the sorcerer a sense of confidence? Does it cause the sorcerer to think about anything specific? Like maybe when casting fire spells, the sorcerer feels warmer or colder depending on the generating and releasing of heat?

So many questions keep buzzing into my head whenever I think about what should I write if my sorcerer were to cast spells. Very curious about the flavour of Sorcery so that I can spend sometime RPing it when I get to cast spells with the Sorcerer.

The nice thing about the forum compared to any games in the world is the potential to describe the feel of actions or powers. In most games, a character just either says the magic word, put in sheer willpower and the magic happens with no indication with what courses through the characer's thoughts due to working their magic or if any emotion is produced when spellcasting other than tiredness...........Most books even forgo describing how their magic feels like, making readers just swallow the fact that magic happened without understanding how difficult it was to pull of a spell.

Can't help but keep dwelling on the topic as it fascinates me...and I've got nothing better to do than this and prepare for exams......

[J. M. Vincent]

It might be a pleasant tingly sensation, much like having your back or neck stroked with feather touches, but not enough to addict someone.

[Syres]

Is it possible to research new Arcanist words to invent new spells? I think its a good idea that instead of everyone speaking the same incantations, one can tweak the spells incantation to perform other effects.

[J. M. Vincent]

Well, as every single word holds power, each sorcerer's incantation can be slightly different for slightly different effects; different twists on a fireball, etc. There might be a good bit of ritual to make new words though, but a single person could probably do it, just with a lot of focus and effort.

[little knight]

Addiction would be primarily based off the person using it. In the little fic I was writting about Eris, she describes it as addictive, but then again, by her own experiance the feeling of power, and not the sorcery itself is addictive. A light tickling sensation probably wouldn't be addictive, but the feeling of doing something that gods can do would go to your head.

Fortunately, we have two sorcerer character types, and both are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Eris-feels slighted by the gods, is left homeless, was beaten as a child, and then learns sorcery. Feeling of power foes to head, becomes a lich.

Arimaya-Born to a wealthy family, had a dedicated teacher, ends up wishing to help people and researching lore. Since she didn't feel any attraction to the power, does not feel slighted by outside source, the draw to power isn't as addictive, and her knowledge is maintained by her self control and consctance.

**************************

As for the magic, I would imagine putting a new spin on the spell would be possible with enough personal control, and training. But comming with a new word altogether would be very hard. Amending a spell to cause it to do something else is just a change of tone, focus, or word... comming up with something without any way to it is a dangerous path, and I would imagine be very close to soul burning if you weren't careful

Boy would your face be red if you went "Hey guys, I invented a really destructive spell, watch! *falls over dead*"

[Astrid Starwind]

Hmm I agree, since sorcery is such a study based with some talent included type of power, it will take a life time of an averge human to even to get close to finding one. You might even need more then average 70 years of a human life span to make a new one. That is my thought..

[Rothene]

If you noted the poster Syres has a Dra'nafod scholar who knows sorcery.....would be interesting to see how he RPs the discovery of a new way to cast A spell.

Dra'nafods do have long lives right? 70 human years isn't too long for them.

[little knight]

I think they live like, 200 years, give or take. The race is immortal, so I would imagine theres always a chance for beyond that.

As for the new spell creation, i'd go with time equaling the amount of power. A small spell, one that draws little mana, might be easy to come up with. Something big, the type of spell that would cause the ground around you to wither and die, might take the majority of a life time, unless divinely inspired (although a god helping a sorcerer would be kinda odd)